Three Laws Safe ([info]meus_ovatio) wrote in [info]0hyourgod,

Counter-point: Hell is a place on Earth.

It is a fun exercise, to take the bare-bones of an ancient and fading belief, and attempt to reconstruct a personal belief regarding the afterlife. Being things beyond any confirmation, they are not central to the matter of faith, but the exercise is fruitful nonetheless.

I believe that the Bible is explicitly metaphorical when it comes to Creation by the holy words: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

I believe that "Paradise" is the unmitigated communion and fellowship with God. Paradise is separate, holy, and pure.

The Heavens, (or Heaven) are the domain of the Divine. People can't go there. We're people. There is a clear and uncrossable divide between the Divine and the mundane, the physical and the profane. God rules from Heaven, angels go hither and thither, and Man never sets foot there. It isn't possible. It is a metaphysical impossibility.

Sheol is the place of Death. When we die, we die and rest in the ground as the beasts, as spoken by King David: "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." and illustrated by Torah: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I believe that this polluted place is our place of waiting, torment and trial. That there are those by example who have led the way to Paradise, those being: Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah and so forth. I do not believe in endings, for endings are a particularly human concept. The preceding verse also demonstrates my next belief. Like others before me, I hold to the concept of limited reincarnation, wherein those who fail to achieve proper holiness and purity, and are so denied entry into Paradise, return to Earthly existence.

There God, speaking to Man in Paradise, decrees that unto "dust" (Earth) thou shalt return. Speaking from a position in Paradise, God is addressing Man as to where he is going. The Land of Nod, for one term. And so Man surely died, as told by God. If death here is a matter of passing into the ground, death from Paradise is a matter of passing into "the sweat of thy face". Besides, the banal explanation of the introduction of mortality is too trite, simple and limited.

In the sweat of thy face- this existence on Earth;

shalt thou eat bread- life,

till thou return to the ground- death;

for out of it wast thou taken- death (non-existence, coming into being):

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return (Earth).

Or something like that. "Limited" reincarnation is such that the "sweat of thy face" is effectively gone forever. Your personality, person-hood, and all that makes you uniquely you dies, however the breath of life continues, for who would say that the breath of God can end? And so the words of Solomon say: What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. and, For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

In short, Hell isn't so much a place where you go. Hell is where we are. And so the question is: can you preserve the holiness of the breath of life within you, so that you may pass beneath the ever-turning sword, and gain passage to Eden? Remember the duty of a guard, the angel standing watch. Not only is it the job of a sentry to block, but the allow passage as well. For those with the password.

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  • 19 comments

[info]yes_justice

July 30 2008, 07:28:16 UTC 3 years ago

hell aint a bad place to be...

How poetic.

[info]rogerdr

July 30 2008, 07:31:54 UTC 3 years ago

If Genesis is metaphorical, what are the genealogies worth?

[info]meus_ovatio

July 30 2008, 07:40:04 UTC 3 years ago

You mean, what purpose genealogies serve in and of themselves? Or what purpose genealogies serve with regards to the age of the Earth? In either event, the dating system doesn't explicitly begin at point zero of Creation. The interim period of living in Paradise is an indeterminate time-period as well. How long did Adam and Eve live in Paradise? What meaning does time have in such a place? Did Adam live 900 some years after being expelled? (In the sense of living as understood by the sweat of his face?) I don't even take the numbers themselves seriously. They are cultural reflections of deeper traditions.

In any case, the matter of how many years or not isn't that important. We're talking about the Bible here, and those who use it as nothing more than a calendar are, dare I say, missing the point entirely.

[info]rogerdr

July 30 2008, 16:54:08 UTC 3 years ago

I meant in and of themselves. If Genesis is not meant to be taken literally, why then are all successive generations of leaders, including Jesus, required to have this royal lineage? Look at it this way; Jesus lived in a culture where the Jewish king, let alone the messiah, had to be legitimized by his authentic connection to David. David, then, had an equal need to be legitimized by his connection to Abraham, etc. all the way back to Seth through Noah (wouldn't want to be a Kennite, don't you know?). This isn't just some neat convention, but actually a requirement fought over and argued by Jewish clergy and historians for centuries. In order for a leader to be legit, he had to have his lineage set in stone. Now, what is any of this worth if 1st and 2nd Genesis is not literally true?

[info]meus_ovatio

July 30 2008, 17:07:50 UTC 3 years ago

This is beyond the scope of my statement "regarding Creation".

Deleted comment

[info]squidb0i

July 30 2008, 15:16:04 UTC 3 years ago

*staples back of your hand to your forehead for you*

[info]virtual_anima

July 30 2008, 19:46:38 UTC 3 years ago

I totally believe that you see hell here.

And I don't.

[info]dkfromtk

July 31 2008, 05:37:41 UTC 3 years ago

Are you by chance Joss Whedon?

[info]captain_brad

July 30 2008, 15:13:15 UTC 3 years ago

Sometimes I like to pretend that Jesus' "first" visit was actually his second, and thus the "rapture". Everyone who's here now are the descendants of those "left behind".

That, or David Koresh actually was the Second Coming of Christ, and we killed his ass again. Tough luck, yo.

[info]rogerdr

July 30 2008, 16:56:21 UTC 3 years ago

Koresh got it in the head by one of his own men. That said, hey, who's your Jesus now?

[info]captain_brad

July 30 2008, 16:59:22 UTC 3 years ago

My vote goes to that guy in South America, whose middle name happens to be Jesus and who thinks he's the messiah.

[info]rogerdr

July 30 2008, 22:13:00 UTC 3 years ago

Yes, he says funny things in interviews. We should keep him around just to see what kind of epic stupid that he can come up with.

[info]amaterasu_no_ki

July 31 2008, 03:35:11 UTC 3 years ago

This is more or less my thoughts on Christianity and life in general.

[info]grappleyo

July 31 2008, 05:56:32 UTC 3 years ago

I like this model, and in this case, I don't think anyone posting on 0hyourgod forums (or anyone living) can consider themselves currently following in the footsteps of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.

[info]meus_ovatio

July 31 2008, 06:15:36 UTC 3 years ago

Well it is certainly difficult to imagine how they saw the world. We often ascribe to men of old all of our controversies, views, theologies, and so on.

I have this notion in my head about a man speaking to Noah about a burning, fiery pit of eternal torment and Noah scratching his head and looking quizzically on.

[info]grappleyo

July 31 2008, 21:09:29 UTC 3 years ago

I just mean in the sense that they were able to communicate directly with God (or as directly as it gets).

It's crazy how much variation there is in how people understand the same God though, both as how it changes as time goes on and how it branches out as it moves into different settings.

[info]fanha

July 31 2008, 07:29:58 UTC 3 years ago

Kind of.

The problem I have is that your term for Hell is actually only describing Sheol/Hades, which isn't what most people mean when they say Hell (or at least, what they picture). Gehenna is the Hell of fire and torment, which is separate and different from what you're talking about as Hell.

That said, this is an interesting interpretation, and could be taken even further. If we die and go to Hell again, are we just talking about another reincarnation until we get it right? Does this simply reduce to a form of Hinduistic reincarnation with Jesus as the liberation from the cycle?

It's completely heretical and not backed up by any evidence, but an interesting thought.

[info]meus_ovatio

July 31 2008, 08:53:00 UTC 3 years ago

Oh certainly, it is nothing like the Hell as envisioned by the Hellenistic developments of the concept.

'Gehenna' is that section of Sheol (as properly understood during the time) separate from the Bosom of Abraham. Both of them two sections of the same place, where the blessed rest and await judgment in peace, and the wicked await judgment in torment.

Does this simply reduce to a form of Hinduistic reincarnation with Jesus as the liberation from the cycle?

No, it reduces to a form of Judaistic reincarnation as taught by some sects over the centuries, stemming from Kabbalah and Ultra-Orthodox and Hasidic theology. (The same sort, as an aside, that dated the Universe to an age of 13 billion years during the medeival period). Pregnancy was often used as a sign of rebirth, and that pregnancies coincided with this cycle of death and life.

If we die and go to Hell again, are we just talking about another reincarnation until we get it right?

Eh, I dunno. Not sure really. It may simply speak of a continual re-birth until such time as a Final Judgment. Some have taken "God is no respector or persons" to tie in with the idea that the afterlife and the endtimes are not matters concerned with individual survival, but more the purification and sanctification of the breath of life resident within all. This ties in further with pictures regarding forges of fire purifying souls and discarding the slag.

Indeed, if we are to be into new men, it would be odd to simply say that we are the same beings only given "new clothes".

[info]fanha

July 31 2008, 10:17:06 UTC 3 years ago

'Gehenna' is that section of Sheol (as properly understood during the time) separate from the Bosom of Abraham. Both of them two sections of the same place, where the blessed rest and await judgment in peace, and the wicked await judgment in torment.

What about Revelation 20:14? It seems to indicate they are different, from the Christian tradition at least.

It may simply speak of a continual re-birth until such time as a Final Judgment.

Or even without a deadline. Who says you can't be reincarnated back in any point in time? If only 144,000 souls exist and will be saved, for example, who says I'm not a reincarnation of you that will escape Sheol while the person I'm arguing with here, while close, will not get it until the next reincarnation (me)? Perhaps every soul that has ever existed in history comes from one of 144,000 spirits who in the end will be restored to community with God and the past incarnations will be thrown out. This is a fun idea intellectually but almost too fun.

Hence why I'll probably stick with my more "traditional" view: parsimony.
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